May 18, 2021

Interview with Win Chang, inventor of the Shoulder Sphere

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Full Interview Transcript

Note: Transcript was done via AI

RangeMaster Rob 0:03
Well, let's kick it off here. Um, today our guest is Win Chang and Win is a semi retired and maybe you can modify that for me orthopedic surgeon who's done a specialty and shoulders. Now can you take us back when all the way to college and kind of to this day kind of help people who will be looking at this kind of put things in perspective.

Win Chang 0:28
Thank you very much for the great introduction, Rob. Yes, you said I'm semi retired, correct. I am retired from the practice of clinical orthopaedics. But I'm not retired from life. I went to medical school at the University of Rochester back. I don't remember how many years ago now, but I've been a practicing orthopedic surgeon in New York for 30 years. My area of specialty been adult reconstruction and sports medicine, and my area of particular interest being in the shoulder naturally. And I had my training throughout the years that UCLA at the Mayo Clinic, and I did my orthopedic training at the NYU hospital for joint diseases. So I know we've we've met back about three years ago, when I first launched my invention, my product or my my product, shoulder sphere are the 2017 APTA CSM meeting in San Antonio was way back when but it's really not longer when you think about it.

RangeMaster Rob 1:37
No, not really. And I'll just follow up. So everyone knows I own the company rangemaster shoulder therapy, and we specialize in shoulder police. And we have distribution, we help about 200,000 patients a year through various channels for people that are either recovering from shoulder surgery, or trying to avoid it altogether. And so it's been a fun part of our business in this zoom world, to talk to other people who are also related to the shoulder, health recovery business, and certainly, what a delightful find to run into when Chang down in San Diego. And hear him talk about why he invented the shoulders fear. And I'm hoping you've got one within reach there when so you can hold it up and everyone can kind of see and that will put our conversation in context here.

Win Chang 2:40
Okay, sure.

I showed us fear is a handheld portable device. It is a patented rotator cuff exercise device specifically for rehabilitation use, injury prevention, strengthening of the rotator cuff. And athletes also take particular interest in terms of return to play. Because that is one of the common issues that people face is that when can I go back to throw a baseball at 60 miles per hour? When can I do my fencing routine again. So what we have many common denominators of measurements and ways of assessment. But my motive is based on a fundamental principle that showed her performance is predicated on rotator cuff performance. rotator cuff is the hinge for the shoulder joint. It is of critical importance for functionality of the shoulder in terms of movement, and particularly stability. With no stability, there's no motion. Well in terms of how I came upon this device, I stumbled upon it really accidentally. I was practicing in orthopedics in private practice and very busy practice. But one of the most charitable events that one can remember in one's life is the ability to spend time with your family play with your kids. And it was about 16 years ago my younger daughter was six was four years old. At that time she like all the other kids wanted to have a pet as you know as a pet so I thought I would try to get out Pat and play with her. But I'll fall pets. She wanted a cat. Unfortunately I have bad allergy to cats. So I couldn't get a cat. So but I did not want to disappoint her so I got a whole bunch of cat toys. And one day I recall I was playing with her on the on the The floor. And there was one particular cat pie was like a ball with a bell in it. And that was kind of a playing around with I was rotating it and spinning it around, just amusing her. And before I knew it, I felt the kind of a workout in my shoulder that I have never experienced before. And then the LED that led me down the rabbit hole and started thinking about, you know, what is it and what is the movement. And as I started to think about the shoulder exercises, really, in the world, what we traditionally do and currently do, I really, based on a linearly directed movement, there's just four movements in the shoulder, we push, we pull, we press or we lift that's about it, we move the arms, these are linearly directed one direction. And the purpose of the rotator cuff, as we know with current knowledge, is that they're really two functions for the rotator cuff. The four muscles of rotator cuff come out from the shoulder blade is the scapula crop out, like a hand that grab onto the top of the onboard the humeral head. And one function as we always do is directionally based, we do the external rotation movement, internal rotation, we do the floor, the upward elevation, the abduction and self worth. So that is why all the traditional exercises for so called rotator cuff exercise based from back in the 1960s pulling the rubber bands or lifting dumbbells based upon external rotation, internal rotation elevation, we accidentally rotate the arm in different positions, we try to hit the particular part of the rotator cuff as to strengthen that individuality on

RangeMaster Rob 7:01
individually right like,

Win Chang 7:03
right. Yeah, that's right, exactly. But that is only one facet of rotator cuff training. But the most important part, which is a sort of a kind of a nebulous is how do we train the real function of the rotator cuff, the real function of the rotator cuff is to synergistically contract all together, all four muscles simultaneously, to grab on to the humeral head to secure constant compression to anchored against the onboard the scapula in order to make it stable, just like the hinge on the door. In order for the door to swing back and forth, you got to have a strong hinge. Otherwise wobbly door is caused by a loose hinge. So the hinge is the rotator cuff. But how do we strengthen this compression effect. That is where this rotational principle of shoulder sphere comes in. Because when one rapidly rotate the ball during a rapid rotation and ending a tight manner, it converts the rotational movement into a compressive movement. It takes a little bit I took me a few years tell the truth. It said I'm trying to explain that within a few minutes. But a really this concept. It took me years to dawn upon I did my own experiments at home with cutouts with prototypes. And I I'm the only one who can subject myself to a needle EMG of the muscle studies. So what basically when you think about if you have to rapidly rotate the ball, at when to make the ball to move in a 360 degree motion. All aspects of the circle this, this is circular motion, they must pull and relax on the opposite sides. So the muscle on this part, pause while the muscle on this side relaxes. So that's what we call a concentric and essential contraction. So if you can visualize the ball rotating, so one part is pulling, the other part has to equally relax at the same pace. Otherwise the ball will not be able to make a perfect circle. A perfect circle requires perfect symmetry, concentric and essential. So as the balls rotating faster than six times per second, six times per second per second. That is very fast. So as far as the brain is able to interpret as Six times per second speed is virtually simultaneous. Because if you look at the video, the pixels are the IV, I don't know if you ever tried to record something from the TV set, where the TV looks like a smooth picture with an ordinary eye. But once when you take your your video to try to your recording, that the TV, the video seems to be scattered seem to, like have pixels on and off, on and off. It's because it's not as smooth as simultaneously occurring as I can perceive. But it's a very fast like a one thing 1/1000 of a second, but the video is able to pick that up. So same thing with the brain, when the when when we could make the the muscle contract and relax as fast as six times per second, as far as we can, can we we are concerned is that it is a simultaneous event. A simultaneous event means that it's pulling the humeral head against the scapula. And that is the phenomenon that you feel this is the experience and the sensation on like any exercise of pulling the rubber band, the closest away off, I try to mimic this our

joint stabilization is what physical therapists do will require a separate appear of experience train the hands, where a person will press against a ball against a wall under the weather called perturbation. So the physical therapist or the trainer will try to knock the hand out of a position. So by trying to knock out a position, your hand has to stay in position, that is probably the closest way that we can mimic this co contraction stability of the rotator cuff. But that is not really functional. The shoulder sphere is a functional tool. In other words, it is a freely mobile in three dimensional space. So one does not have to think of I have to do the external rotation to train the external rotators the internal rotation, I have to get into figure out flow position to target the specific rotator cuff muscles. But once you get the ball rotating in whatever position, all four muscles are simultaneously engaged. Okay, so

RangeMaster Rob 12:27
it is you gotta let me ask you some questions. When absolutely, I'll jump in. It won't be it won't be as fun if I don't get to ask you some questions along the way. Here I

Win Chang 12:36
jump right in. Okay,

RangeMaster Rob 12:38
so to start with, you basically highlighted something I don't hear very often. And and that is the dual function of the rotator cuff is in addition to all kind of strength buildings, you've you've introduced this whole concept of, I think you use the word compression, but you're really stabilizing. You're stabilizing the joint. Right,

Win Chang 13:04
right, you're That's right, one roll is half the rotator cuff is to assist rep directionally range of motion, external rotate, internal rotate, but the major function is co contraction with all four muscles grab onto the humeral head in addition to movement. That's right. That is very difficult. This is a concept that you have to think through as a baseball pitcher moves the arm from the top to the bottom position. As the arms moving, the rotator cuff does assist in terms of direction of movement, but at the same time, the opposite muscles has to decelerate. So rotator cuff function is a deceleration function. It is a decelerator not an accelerator. Okay,

RangeMaster Rob 13:59
so now let's talk about the unstable joint. Because as a surgeon, you saw a lot of unstable joints and you saw several different reason for instability. I first want to talk about pain, a conversation we've had in the past. Do you presume then that it is the instability in the joint that is the genesis of the pain? Or is it the tears that people get what where's that pain coming from?

Win Chang 14:33
The shoulder pain multifactorial and then it really is multifaceted a complex area. You talk about instability, we can group into two major groups of instability, structurally related instability versus functionally related instability. Structurally means that some type of structure being out of whack for instance, that you have at For ligament torn tendon, structurally mechanically, it is not sound part of the bone is missing. So structurally related the instability by which oftentimes, one may require surgery. But however, sometimes that we could overcome those deficits without surgery with proper rehabilitation, functionally related instability, meaning that there is a symmetric or on coordination in terms of the balance of the shoulder, as the arm is moving through space. So, as So, you see a look at my hand as the rotator cuff grabbing onto the ball of the shoulder. So, as the ball is moving through space, the muscles have to respond instantaneously related to the direction of the arm is moving. So, as the arms moving in one direction you think of lesser again with with a circle, as the as the arms moving from legislators from 12 o'clock to three o'clock, at that moment in time, from nine to 12 o'clock, they have to be symmetrically be relaxing at the same pace, as the 112 to three o'clock is accelerating. So, the deceleration has to match the acceleration. So, when there is mismatch, there is a micro slippage. There's performed over and over again, with costs micro damage, small injury, just like a leaking dike eventually becomes like a large symptomatic problem in my shoulder impingement, the so called the old concept of so called impingement, or our where we've got from my textbooks, where we raise the arm, the shoulder moves up, and then they shift against the bone, the chromium chromosome we did we remove the bomb, and in the old days, we don't we no longer do that, remove the ball. So this way, there's room for the tendon to move, but without really understanding that the reason why the tendon is impinging against the bone is because the bone is shifting. By removing

RangeMaster Rob 17:25
it in stable,

Win Chang 17:26
it will not fast, right?

RangeMaster Rob 17:30
And what about what's the inflammation role there then?

Win Chang 17:34
Well, inflammation can be related to wall many reasons as well. There's intrinsic inflammation or extrinsic inflammation, intrinsic inflammation, meaning that if a person unfortunately has some sort of inflammatory, dysfunction, rheumatoid arthritis, or osteoarthritis, or just degeneration of one kind or another is a biologic, so that we, you know, we try to rehabilitate, or extrinsic type of inflammation, meaning mechanical, being that over many times have a misuse and abuse of the arm. where, again, due to this micro subluxation, with abnormal wear, robbing of the tendon creating the bursitis and or repeated traction injury. For instance, though, as a person throws over and over again, there's always all what they call an eccentric contraction, as the arms been as you throw the ball, you literally try to throw your shoulder out of the socket. Also, when you your hand, opens up, you release a ball, if you can envision that you don't release the ball, the entire arm can go out. But the reason why the arms not going out, it's because the rotator cuff grabs it grabs it. So every time the arms swung private, private, 90 miles per hour, 60 miles per hour, over and over again, eventually creates a little bit of tearing, that's where the biceps tendon are the rest here because they cannot respond fast enough to the accelerating pace of this arm movement. When we move the arm, there are 17 muscles move the arm. These are divided into a large muscle, a small muscle, but all of those 17 only four are the small, stabilizing rotator cuff muscles, the other 13 so it's roughly 80 to 20% 80% of the movement when we move the arm are the accelerators. So they're always way more powerful than the stabilizers so there's no way some people many people have asked Can you ever overtrain over exercise your rotator cuff. You can never over exercise your rotator cuff. You always over exercise, your delts your trapezius Your last all the other Move, move up major, large major mover movers on the shoulder, never that stabilizes.

RangeMaster Rob 20:08
So let's talk about shoulders fear. And let's talk about in both the non operative and the post operative. And because you're the surgeon, I'm going to ask you to start with post operative. At what point are you introducing the shoulder sphere, post op, if you've got, I guess the standard thing would be a rotator cuff tear?

Win Chang 20:28
Well, it really depends on the nature of surgery depends on the surgeon depends on interoperative findings because repairing a tear, just like repairing the split in your wool sweater. They come in many sizes, shapes and forms, and many ways of repair and reconstruction. Also, the major components, it depends on the surgeon, the treating individual really should understand that what are the needs and expectations of the individual of the patient? What does the patient want to do if the patient is a 21 year old, all star pitcher, obviously different from an 81 year old who had just who's being treated because of pain, but not because oh, I want to go back to throw the baseball. Right. So it depends on the nature of repair. So everything in generality, after. Usually there is an appropriate period of rest after surgery to allow some tissue healing. And that period of rest that ranges anywhere from four weeks to six weeks. We try not to immobilize the shoulder as a rangemaster wonderful device, where with the odd pulley, I've personally tried out myself, you know your device, I even have one at home. Thank you for letting me have an extended borrow.

RangeMaster Rob 21:58
Thank you for mentioning, but go ahead. No, I

Win Chang 22:00
should I have many, many people use it physically. I mean, now we know we don't even need to mention it because it's just understood. But it is a wonderful tool for assist the range of motion. So I in the post operative face, gentle range of motion is number one. And that includes the pulley device with a physical therapist or trained pair of hands for some what we call passive range of motion. And then at an appropriate time when the surgeon feels that the individuals are healed appropriately to allow some active range of motion. So then we can talk about active range of motion, but without, with again without against the gravity. In other words, you can do table slides up forward and backwards. And then of course, the next step will be against gravity, such as raising the arm, raising the arm, this actually requires quite a bit of attention, pulling tensile strength on a rotator cuff, the arm in general weighs about 10% 1/10 of your body weight. The center of rotation for the arm is that a place that is about 10 times where the rotator cuff muscles insert. So by raising the arm against gravity halfway up, the rotator cuff has to exert about 10 times the weight of the arm, which because of the leverage effect, because the arm actually wants to drop, but the rotator cuff has to pull. So this is the arm, the arm is dropping. So in order to prevent it from dropping, I have to pull up, pull it because of the center of gravity of the arm dropping from this position versus that the rope or the location where the tendons are inserted 10 to one ratio. So 10 to one at 1/10 your body weight. So one can just conceptualize it is equal to body weight, tensile strength. If you weigh 150 pounds to raise your mob halfway up, your rotator cuff has to pull 150 pounds of pressure. Tremendous amount of pressure. Yeah,

RangeMaster Rob 24:18
well now, so keep going there because I want to know, then at what point because based on what you said previously, we don't really want to activate the larger accelerator muscles in the next phase, I'm assuming that in the repair and the recovery, you want to focus in on those stabilizers without triggering the massive muscles. Am I right about that? Or do you do it in a reverse form?

Win Chang 24:50
No, exactly. You're right. The first step is of course passive motion. When we talk about passive motion, it is very difficult for the person for instance, so with your Europe Just using a pulley, that door, the upward pulley is an example. That person needs to consciously relax while the arms being pulled up, because the reflexively will always try to move the arm. And that's when you activated the the major movers and stabilizers are have to come into play. So you have to consciously Try to relax and just let a passively move. So passive motion without triggering any of the muscles. But as I said, the second stage with a shoulder sphere, I have a series of rehabilitation, state different phases of rehabilitation that unfortunately, many of the physical therapists have adopted in one way, shape, form or form of another or as a guide in terms of rehabilitation, because a wonderful way of isolating only the rotator cuff, without triggering the major muscles, is what I call the closed chain. unweighted technique. So instead, I'm just going to move the video a little bit, I don't know if you can see it on the table here.

The arm, the hand is up, rested comfortably on the table.

And then all the person needs to do. I'm rotating the ball, my arms are moving, you don't see my hand moving. Right, right, my arms, I'm moving, I just even just one finger pressure.

RangeMaster Rob 26:45
Look at that. And that's going to go all the way back up to the stabilizer.

Win Chang 26:52
What is making the ball rotate all only that rotator cuff, rotate my large muscles. I'm not moving the arm. I'm not pulling the roll back. I'm not moving in a linear fashion. Everything is rotational the bass.

RangeMaster Rob 27:09
So can the patient. Let's say it's six weeks? Can they do that? minimal pain.

Win Chang 27:17
Yeah, yeah, tell the truth. I myself have X with my own patients, I have them I started doing that in two weeks, even sometimes, they just just rotate the ball. And then that's phase one. Phase Two is you inject some movement of the hand. See, I'm moving the hand while I'm rotating. So my large muscles are making my arm move, while I'm also training the rotator cuff to respond simultaneously the movement of the arm. And then the next step will be without with gravity. And then the highest level will be functionality functional training. As for those individuals go on the website, they can see baseball players uses swimmers use it in a variety of different techniques.

RangeMaster Rob 28:08
What's the website

Win Chang 28:11 shoulder sphere, one word

RangeMaster Rob 28:17
say s h o u l d e r s p h e r e.

Win Chang 28:26

RangeMaster Rob 28:27
we needed to get that in. And don't be about I alluded to the fact that your your post op and non operative patients with rangemaster we see about a 5050 split. And then combined with that, we see our average patient is going to be between 60 and 85 years old. There are it's interesting to work with athletes, but most people's joints are just wearing out. So tell me about what you've seen so far with shoulder sphere. Are you seeing more non operative or more post operative patients use your product? I

Win Chang 29:12
from my my own tracing, I would say probably 75% are non operative 25% are postoperative with a physiotherapy related. The non operative one so are generally the population who want to avoid surgery. I have individuals of course we know from physical therapy studies, even though surgeons, you know don't like that we like to operate. But it is true that many individuals can contain their level of pain and maintain their reasonable expected level of performance. We're not talking about going back to being an Olympic swimmer, but just to perform A normal daily routine, we can manage majority of the so called hairs and arthritis without surgery, and of course, based on the proper motivational factor, but some people, unfortunately do require surgery. And I have a large number I would say probably a good 50% are athletes who will want to amplify their performance on the field, be whether they're swimmers, they're fencers. They are archery eyeball hunters, you know, bow hunters, quite a bit of a poll. And so they would use the shoulder sphere for that motion. I have, of course, naturally baseball pitchers, cricket players, volleyball players, very, very popular among beach volleyball players.

RangeMaster Rob 30:51
So active adults are really in your non operative group. And how about I think you said that's about 75%, non operative? About 25% post operative? Is that what you said? Well, that's

Win Chang 31:05
about that's about Mike, my guesstimate. That's just my guesstimate off. I've found that in terms of the physical therapy centers, who use the device, and I would assume that they probably manage a lot of individuals after surgery. But I also see a lot of physiotherapists, who manage individuals who have shoulder pain, because not everybody who go to physical therapy, have had surgery, a lot of them probably majority of them have not had any surgery.

RangeMaster Rob 31:34
Correct? Correct. And then what about age? It sounds like you have a pretty group a pretty good group of what I like to call the attractively active adults, people that are not kids anymore, but they like to stay active. Is that sound like your your athletes? Absolutely,

Win Chang 31:51
absolutely. I have age range from 14 to 98. I've had a 98 year old use it. They just I I've had I've individuals in nursing facilities, you know, they just they sit in a chair, they just roll to spin the ball. It's kind of like a fun toy for them. But they they come in two flavors. The larger one is called a seven. And the smaller one is called f two a Stanford athletic, seven, seven ounces, f two the fitness two ounces. So generally, those fit individuals who can do 10 push ups and a can overhead press 12 pounds with a 12 pound dumbbell, they can use the large one. And however, the weaker individual the ones who are recovering from surgery or injury, use a smaller 114 being the younger one because of the size of the splint. And when I first made this my first my first generation, the size of the splint is a little bit too long for individuals who are younger than 14 just because of the arm size of the arm. And I suppose so that's why the young youngest Yeah, and also needs a look of maturity to understand why they're using it. Although I do have a 12 year old affair, a fairly advanced tennis player 12 year old who uses that, but it's still it's still a little bit too big.

RangeMaster Rob 33:13
What about the people that are doing video games? Um, have you seen any any

Win Chang 33:23
video game trigger thumb. I've done many operations for trigger thumb. I've had many video game which film problem. I think the future of humanity, you may not need a shoulder because we really rarely have to move the arm up and down. We just keep our arms on the side. We just go like this. But those

RangeMaster Rob 33:46
days with posture, a poor posture in front of a video terminal. could could give us future patients if you you know what I mean?

Win Chang 33:56
Maybe maybe the back and neck.

RangeMaster Rob 33:59
Yeah, exactly. Well, I want to go back to your older population because that's, as I told you where our population resides, it would seem to me that the shoulders fear offers a non threatening form of rehabilitation therapy to an older patient who might be really guarding after they've had a history of pain. Have you had any success there?

Win Chang 34:22
great success. Thanks for mentioning exactly it is now threatening because when one tries to pull a rubber band, just say immediately when you have to activate a large muscles even though we can use a very light yellow band, but it's still just a form of arm exercise. We pull the band, we lift a dumbbell or while we do a little bit of a physical therapist with a perturbation exercise. But with the shoulders here it's very, very easy. There is a physical therapist, for instance, just rests on a table.

just rotate the ball feels like looks like as if you're not doing anything.

Do you like doing quite a bit? Because mathematically, one can calculate what is the rotator cuff in our power involved. Actually, that comes down to another facet of the discussion. One part of the athletic performance aspect is because the rotator cuff has to respond to the speed of the movement of the arm. So intuitively, we know that if you move your arm at 10 miles an hour, slowly versus 30 miles an hour, required bigger muscle to move fast, but bigger muscle means a bigger deceleration.

RangeMaster Rob 35:42

Win Chang 35:44
Bigger deceleration, and faster rotator cuff contractility. So that's why I have In addition, which we did not talk about is this power tracking meter.


is the same device, three axis accelerometer that the iPhones use in terms of tracking your, your walking speed, your velocity, all the basic trackers, even on Tesla cars, how fast you're going everything, based on the on this principle of XYZ directional accelerometer. So this, this is my generation one, eventually, of course, one can digitize the amount of power involved. They just like in the peloton, bike, the power of output and so forth. So right now depends on how fast you're rotating the ball that dictates what light is, when the person is rotating the large one at a slow speed, it is green, when they rotate a fast, rotate it  fast.

So that six times per second turns red. And what does that equate to? That equates to the ability of the rotator cuff to respond to a 60 mile per hour pitch, the movement of the hand or a 90 mile per hour pitch the movement of the hands. Because as a hand moves faster, my rotator cuff has to contract fast. And the speed of the contraction is power over the work over time. So that is where the power accelerometer comes in. So what an individual can gauge was ability. So a person says Well, can I go pitch 90 miles per hour. So if that so there are really two aspects, I've met hundreds of baseball players, one time, I always I can pitch at high 80s 90 no problem. But I asked him to do the shoulder sphere, they are unable to spin it into the red zone in a smooth fashion. I can predict that these are the individuals who are at high risk for injury did not have the accelerator. Or a person says I want to pitch at 90 miles per hour but they're unable to spin it in red. So they that's why they can only pitch slower. So the car can only go as fast as it should stop be able to stop. So the when when the person trains it's like a building the engine for the car. We wait lift we power trying to build a bigger and bigger engine faster and faster call rotator cuff gives you better brakes.

RangeMaster Rob 38:35
I love your analogies when very clearly stated. Well, we've really gone over the amount of time we talked about but I do want you to talk just a little bit. A lot of our medical professionals end up with an invention in their mind. But very few of them get it all the way to first a prototype and then a marketable product. What what do you what do you say? I'm sure other other medical people come to you and say, how do you do it? And what do I need to know? What kind of advice do you have for medical inventors?

Win Chang 39:14
One is have a little bit of luck and the support of your family that they do not mind you tinkering around in the basement for hours and hours and forgetting to play with the understanding of family that How did I initially afford one does not need much funding. You can just say I used to cut out a baseball, soccer volleyballs and different balls at different types that will protect my my particular venture. And then of course I needed eventually you get to the point where I was so consumed by trying to understand how does it work and what makes it work. If one does need some funding, you can either get From your friends, our supporters so for to get funding? Oh, well, you know, I have to sit regrettably to say that since by it took years, you know, it was not immediate. My as my daughters have grown older, and I realized that I no longer needed the life insurance coverage, so I cashed out my life insurance. Don't tell my wife that. But so I figured that they no longer need my life insurance to survive, you know, they can be on their own. So I so I have very little insurance policy now. No, no, I use that as my funding. And then, and then other things that start to equalize out. So I'm happy, I'm happy with where I am right now.

RangeMaster Rob 40:49
You know, and, and so you'd say to the other end vendors, don't don't discourage yourself, but be resourceful in how you go about. go about it. Now, I've seen you a lot of trade shows and, and is that has that been the most because at a trade show, you have to pay for the booth and and then you got to show it to other therapists or or doctors and and you have to be able to put up with some criticism or some input of would you recommend that pathway again? Or are there other pathways that you might say to, to other inventors?

Win Chang 41:30
I think it's kind of obligatory, I myself, I really looked at it as my opportunity to travel, because I love traveling, besides the trade shows that we've met each other. I actually, I personally, I not even not no trade shows. But I ventured to over 16 countries. I wanted to meet people who don't know me, who are not involved with any any facet of being treated. I want to see how they react. I was in Cyprus, I had a chance to play the bongo drums with the swing team in Cyprus. So I hung out in Cyprus, I Cyprus, of all places, I went to their local gyms, I just I just took it over there. I asked people to try it. I was in Iceland, I went to the largest CrossFit facility in the world problem probably at that time. Any thorisdottir in Reykjavik, Iceland, I love traveling, I met the World's Strongest Man, I met all the big heavy lifters, I was in Italy, I was in, in, in England, in France, I was all over the place just to watch. It's just to me to convince myself that people are not contaminated. By seeing me as a physician, by seeing me at a trade show that I'm the sort of I can the expert and so forth. I want to see people in the real life. And actually in the very beginning, good friend of mine, we actually went undercover, went to Dick's Sporting Goods, and presented my early prototype to individuals. You may even see some of that on my website, the videos, where we say that we were salespeople for this company, just want to test out this product. How do you like it, I want to see their reaction. So that so perseverance is a key and be steadfast with your goal. And as long as one is motivated and have a goal in mind, but of course you got to enjoy your journey. As my my brother has always said to me that journey is the destination. So my my end goal is really not to make make a product that people can buy. But my journey is the talking to you meeting Rob Allen and San Antonio water, our River Walk with your cowboy hat. That is my enjoyment. That is what I enjoy. What do you do? Oh, yes. So you know, but in a way to weave into my area of expertise, my training, I enjoy travel, enjoy food, because when you travel, you eat everything. I was in Thailand eating cow blog, you don't want but I so that's where I gained my wealth of my confidence that I know it works. No question my mom.

RangeMaster Rob 44:33
Yeah, Win Chang orthopedic surgeon and inventor. Thank you so much for spending time with us. And we'll, we'll get you out. We'll show you how to 20,000 subscribers of our newsletter. We'll see how many open it up. And fascinating, always fun to talk. Thank you very much.

Win Chang 44:59
Thank you so much. Rob And please, next visit, I'll be at the farmers market.

RangeMaster Rob 45:05
That's one of my favorite places to alright.

Win Chang 45:09
Take care everyone. Have a good day.


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